WITNESSES: THOMAS GOUTTIERRE,
DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR AFGHAN STUDIES, THE UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA AND FATIMA
GAILANI, ADVISER, NATIONAL ISLAMIC FRONT OF AFGHANISTAN
BODY: SEN. BIDEN: Mr.
Thomas Gouttierre, the dean of international studies, and director of the
Center for Afghan Studies, University of Nebraska, in Omaha Nebraska; as well as
Ms. Gailani, an adviser to the National Islamic Front of Afghanistan from
Providence, Rhode Island. I welcome you both here. And I find I am -- I have to
tell the senators from Nebraska, I am increasingly relying upon Nebraska, the
University of Nebraska, these days. As chairman of the Criminal Law
Subcommittee, yesterday I had a professor -- a colleague of yours from the
University of Nebraska did a first-rate study on the -- and the only intensive
study, five-year study on the efficacy of the crime bill and the cops bill. And
it was thorough. And now here I am seeking Nebraska's input again. So this is
good for me. I don't know about Nebraska, but it's good for me.
I welcome you both. And I'm told one of you has a time constraint.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: I think it is I.
SEN. BIDEN: Dean, well, why don't you -- with the permission of Ms.
Gailani, if you'd proceed first.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: All
right. Thank you for your comments about Nebraska. I know you're talking about
my colleague at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, Sam Walker, and he's a very
outstanding fellow.
So, I'm pleased to be back. I've
rarely been at a Senate hearing like this -- and I've been attending these,
giving presentations on Afghanistan since the early '70s -- where there have
been so many people in agreement on so many things. And that's very heartening.
I don't say this in any way lightly, because I think it really means very good
things for both the United States and Afghanistan.
SEN.
BIDEN: There's an old expression, attributed to Samuel Johnson, "There's nothing
like a hanging to focus one's attention."
MR.
GOUTTIERRE: That's true, exactly. And that's exactly what happened.
I'm just going to, therefore, make some comments which I
think will be in many ways a reiteration of some of the statements made by your
first panel, and some of the comments that were picked up by members of the
Senate as well.
First of all, let me just reiterate
that -- and I agree with what you have said, that we need to be as forthright
and forthcoming with the reconstruction campaign as we have been with
prosecuting the military campaign of this war on terrorism. We, I think, have to
be the leader, and we must be perceived as so.
In
response to one comment, talking about the possibility of being intrusive, I
think the Afghans are not so concerned about the United States being intrusive
at this stage. And let me be very clear in saying that. I think they are more
concerned about us meeting their expectations, and we have not in the past
decade. The Afghans do see us as their friends and supporters. Afghans are not
xenophobic, and I think this is one of the myths that, you know, exists about
Afghans. The Afghans just don't like to have people invading their territory,
raping their women or stealing their property. And if you're good friends with
them -- I lived there since the early '60s -- I can tell you, you can't find
more loyal and devoted friends, people who are, you know, very expectant and
being able to deal on an equal level with people.
So I
feel this is not only Afghanistan's window of opportunity, I think this is also
the United States' window of opportunity. We have a real shot, I think, at
advancing our whole position, our U.S. foreign policy interests in the region,
in the Muslim world, and around the world. And I certainly don't think this will
be as expensive as what we will need to spend if we do try to do it on the cheap
and fail. We've had experiences of doing that. We need to recognize that this is
a sound investment in our own future. I agree with Senator Wellstone and his
comments on that. Our share needs to be the share of one setting the appropriate
and effective example, and I think that needs to be the way it is.
There is a historical precedent with the United States
working like this in Afghanistan dealing with Afghans in this type of
development, and I think that's something that should give us, again, a lot of
encouragement. When I lived there in the '60s and '70s, the U.S. was very, very
much involved with other nations in helping the Afghans develop, and the
development that occurred there went on after the last loya jirga. You know
we're talking now about convening another jirga. And that one constructed the
liberal, it's called, or the progressive constitution of Afghanistan, which went
into effect in 1964.
During that period of time, there
was a lot of development going on in Afghanistan. It was still a poor country.
But women were essentially not wearing veils. Girls were going to school, like
boys. There were women who were ministers of cabinet, members of parliament. And
Afghanistan essentially was trying to move itself from being an absolute
monarchy to a constitutional parliamentary monarchy. So Afghans harken back to
those things. They remember that. That's why the former king, Zahir Shah,
remains such a symbol of hope for most Afghans. And I think it's very important
that we remember that there is this historical precedent. We just are not only
dealing with, you know, a situation where we have to kind of begin from
nowhere.
There is a problem, of course, in that so much
of Afghanistan has been destroyed. In the '60s and '70s we were building upon
development efforts that had been begun in the '40s and '50s as well. And now
Afghanistan is going to be much more difficult, I think, to rebuild, to develop,
and to reconstruct.
I think there is one thing that we
need to remember about insulating Afghans from the meddling of their neighbors.
They all have their own agendas. And I think it is important, as Ambassador
Haass mentioned, that we need to work with them, the so-called group "six plus
two," because if we have them working with us, it's probably more advantageous
than having them working against us. But I think that -- you know, I was
involved with the United Nations in '96 and '97, when that same six plus two was
really a formula for disaster.
And so I think it really
requires a very, very active role by the United States kind of serving as a
safeguard, because each of these six have -- has its own agenda, and they have
been, you know, famous and successful --
SEN. BIDEN:
Not the same agenda.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: What?
SEN. BIDEN: Their own, and not --
MR. GOUTTIERRE: -- the same agenda.
SEN.
BIDEN: -- the same.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: And it's not the
agenda of the Afghans. And I think one of the things that's very heartening from
all the Bonn meetings is that without these, you know, other six meddling, in a
sense, the Afghans, some of whom had difficulty getting together in the past
because of the meddling, were able to do things that nobody really expected to
happen quite so quickly. And we don't need any more Wahhabi or -- (inaudible)
--Fifth Column movements in Afghanistan, or others like that.
So I think our role is going to be very, very important in that regard.
And I appreciate what you just said in the very last comment you had because I
think that was suggestive of that in particular role.
So, Six Plus Two perhaps has a role, but it needs to be very, very
clearly different from when Pakistan could sabotage it, as it did, and when
others could follow, therefore, after in doing the same thing. So we need,
again, to try to insulate the Afghans from the meddling that has often proceeded
from them.
And concerning the security forces, one of
the things we keep hearing is that they need to be solely Muslim. Any Afghan
with whom I've talked said that should not be the case. They really seek the
best possible peacekeeping forces. And I agree with Richard Haass. I also agree
with you that it will probably require perhaps introduction, maybe, of monitors,
if not necessarily helmets. And that might lend credibility to any internal
forces. I think it would be advisable if it could be a combination of some
international and some internal. And I don't know exactly how that could
be -- or should be composed at this stage, but I think that it could be this
kind of thing.
Now I'd like to just say a few things
about what type of reconstruction, and that is this. That I think there needs to
be an emphasis on community-based programs and basic health, basic
education, basic infrastructure, reconstruction, basic manpower training for
men and women, and also literacy and possible places where Afghans can gang
together in a kind of one-stop shop in their villages and regions and be able to
engage, while they may be going after some of these other things, in some of the
constructive citizen education efforts that the Afghans are going to need in
setting up dialogue.
Remember, it's been 28 years since
the Afghans have had a representative form of government, 28 years since the
king was overthrown by his cousin in a revenge coup. And so it's going to be
difficult. They've had 28 years of regional power-lords trying to exercise their
control. So we need to help them find ways to have a dialogue for
reconstruction. And I think this might all be done through these community-based
efforts. So I hope we think about that because, if you see pictures of
Afghanistan, a country which I remember as very, very scenic, very beautiful, a
country today that looks very destitute because it's been so rubble-ized and
also experienced four years of drought, in addition to these 28 years straight
of warfare.
Finally, I'd just like to address something
to this point that was raised, now, how much will it cost. And again, it's hard
to know that. But I'd just like to close by saying this. Whether it's 10 or 20
billion (dollars), I think it will be a bargain for us. And again I'd like to
repeat, It will be a bargain for us in terms of our interest in that part of the
world, it will be a bargain for us in terms of our interest in the Muslim world,
and it will be a bargain around the whole world as the world takes a look to see
how we do sustain our promises and commitments. And I think we're very much, you
know, on display in this particular thing.
So, if I
may, I beg your forgiveness here, I want to add one thing that I think is a very
appropriate element to closing this out. Afghans are always referred to as
warriors. They are successful warriors, but they like to think of themselves as
poet-warriors. And there's my favorite poem from one of the great Persian poets,
whose name --
SEN. BIDEN: Are you talking about the
Irish or the Afghans? (Laughter.)
MR. GOUTTIERRE: No,
no, this is not the Irish. (Laughs.)
SEN. BIDEN: Oh.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: But they're alike. They're alike in this
way, you know.
This is from the "The Gulistan" of
Sheikh Mulish-uddin Sa'di. I'm going to read it both in Persian -- just in honor
of my Afghan friends, many who have died and who are now struggling -- and then
I'll translate it. But this will display what really the Afghans mean, I think,
to -- and what we mean to them as their friends.
It's
short.
(Reads the poem in Persian.)
"One day at bath" --
SEN. BIDEN: You don't
have to translate it. I got it. (Laughter.)
MR.
GOUTTIERRE: Oh, well, good. Well, I know --
SEN. BIDEN:
But maybe you could do it for my colleagues.
MR.
GOUTTIERRE: I know you guys from Wisconsin do very well on that. I followed your
earlier thing.
SEN. BIDEN: That's right, we do. It's
the cheese.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: (Laughs.) Well, you're full
of that today, aren't you? (Laughs.)
In any case, "One
day" -- now the translation.
SEN. BIDEN: You're about
to be cut off, if you make another comment like that. (Laughter.)
MR. GOUTTIERRE: Okay.
"One day at
bath, a piece of perfumed clay was passed to me from the hand of a friend. I
asked the clay, Are you musk or ambergris, because your delightful scent
intoxicates me?'"
"It answered, I am but a worthless
piece of clay, but have sat for a period with the rose. The perfection of that
companion left its traces on me, who remains that same piece of earth that I
was.'"
This is what Afghans read when they say how
important to them friendship is and what friendship can do to them. They see us
right now as the rose. And you know, I think we can be also the clay and see
them as the rose. And let's hope that we truly do what we promised to do, so
that we can see Afghanistan become what I think we all want it to become, in our
interest, as well as in their own.
I thank you very
much for having me here before your --
SEN. BIDEN: If
you don't mind, since he has to leave, can we postpone and I'm going to yield to
my friend from Nebraska to be able to question the dean?
Did you go to the University of Nebraska?
SEN.
CHUCK HAGEL (R-NE): Yes.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: At Omaha.
Where I work.
SEN. HAGEL: Yes.
SEN. BIDEN: Now's your -- but now's your chance. Now's your chance to
get back.
SEN. PAUL WELLSTONE (D-MN): Would the senator
from Nebraska give me just 10 seconds to -- since I didn't realize we had the
votes? And I want to apologize to both of you. I have to leave in a couple of
minutes, and I will read what you said and get back to you. I apologize.
SEN. HAGEL: Mr. Chairman, thanks for pointing out my
academic career -- not one to be emulated, I might add.
SEN. BIDEN: It was by me, though. (Laughter.)
SEN. HAGEL: Thank you.
SEN. BIDEN: It was by
me.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: Chuck, we're proud of you.
SEN. HAGEL: Tom, thank you very much. And I have always
believed in your judgment and solid understanding of life and your insightful
appreciation for what we're doing here. And I am very proud of you and all at
the University of Nebraska at Omaha who have contributed to a better
understanding of this issue all over this country.
This
is a complicated issue, as you know, and your colleague Ambassador Thompson, who
you know, Mr. Chairman, who came to the University of Nebraska at Omaha from his
last post as our ambassador to Armenia, distinguished foreign service career,
and he, along with Mr. Gouttierre, has really developed a clear perspective on
this issue.
And I might add, as well, you have not
hesitated to point out where, in your opinion, we have drifted a bit as we have
worked our way along through this treacherous path.
One
that I want to get to here in a question -- you may have seen the story in the
Omaha World Herald today which quotes you and Ambassador Thompson -- they're AP
reports and stories -- of your strong support of the results so far of the Bonn
meetings and the outcome last night and what now is in place and what will play
out here for at least the next few months. And if I have missed some of this in
the first part of your testimony, Tom, because of the vote, I apologize. But I'd
be interested in getting maybe a little deeper sense from you of how you think
the process plays out from here. I know you're very supportive of the
individuals, Mr. Karzai, who has been selected to lead this effort. And anything
that you would like to embroider around on this specific area would be helpful.
Thank you.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: Thank you, Chuck, Senator
Hagel, and I appreciate that.
And you're right; I am
enthusiastic. I'm enthusiastic because I know so many of these people, know them
to be very quality people.
One of them, for example,
the minister of -- proposed minister of finance, who's had experience working at
the World Bank, was -- he and his sister helped to teach me Persian when I was a
Peace Corps trainee back in the early 1960s.
Hamid
Karzai has been an individual I've known for 15 years. He's a very
sophisticated, moderate nationalist and an individual who I know is dedicated to
trying to bring -- bringing all the parts of Afghanistan together. And I
appreciate that. He doesn't see himself just as a regionalist, and I think that,
you know, bodes well for Afghanistan.
I could go down
the list. Some of them are connected even now with the University of Nebraska at
Omaha, and some have worked with us on USAID/State Department-funded projects
during the war with the Soviet Union. So I have a lot of respect for them,
because I think most of them are professionals. They're technocrats, in addition
to their political connections.
I'm particularly
pleased with the nomination and the appointment of Sima Samar, the woman who is
the assistant -- you know, the vice administrator. I've known her for many
years. She's an exceedingly courageous woman who has, you know, worked against
incredible odds to hold education programs for Afghan women in the country, as
well as in refugee camps. And we've been proud to -- from the University of
Nebraska at Omaha, to work with her.
I could go on, and
I won't, you know, do that. What I will do is say this: I appreciate what you
said, Senator, about the role that the United States might take in a situation
like you were describing with Ustad (sp) Rabanni, who has been the president in
the past. I've known him since 1969. And I think his interests are a little more
regional than national, and I think that what Ambassador Haass indicated, you
know, Ambassador Dobbins was doing in Bonn and others, as well as, I think,
other Afghans -- members of his own group, I think, were cautioning him that he
needed to be cautious and to step back.
I think this is
very, very important. This we need to pursue.
And
again, let me reiterate what I said here before. You know, the Afghans right now
see us as their friend. They count on friends very heavily. They don't see us as
intrusive. You know, they see us as those who have helped them to rid themselves
of the terrorists and the Pakistani volunteers and the Pakistani military, which
they did not want in their country. And I think it's very important that we
remember that, and we need to avoid disappointing our friends.
Remember, in the last two big wars, the Cold War and the war on
terrorism -- the big wars -- you know, the Afghans were our allies. They lost
over a million in the Cold War -- the last big battle of the Cold War. Who won
that war? We did. Who lost it? The Soviet Union. Who were the victims? One
million Afghans dead, one and a half million Afghans severely wounded, 70
million Afghan refugees. And we've talked here in this meeting today about the
fact that we kind of dumped them in the '90s. And now again, they're our allies
in this war, the first campaign in this war on terrorism. They are our friends.
Let us show them how Americans can also be friends. Let us uphold the ideal of
that poem that I read, just as I know the Afghans will, given the chance.
Thank you for that question.
SEN.
BIDEN: Thank you.
You're a real sophisticated guy, and
you know what's going on in Afghanistan, and I know you must have a sense of
what's going on politically here. There is a debate that is -- I cannot say with
certainty, but I can tell you after 29 years being here, there's a debate within
the administration and among members of Congress as to what our role really
should be when it gets down to the details. Everybody's going to say, "You said
there's great agreement." And there is.
It's
interesting, and I'm really pleased, the president early on -- and I can't
remember whether Chuck was with me or not, but we were -- a couple of us were
down with the president and he asked, what should be done? And one of my
colleagues had said to me in a different context, you know, he said -- and I
repeated it.
I said, "Mr. President, World War II
started. We were getting beaten, and Roosevelt had the foresight to assemble a
group of men in the basement of the White House and say, 'Tell me what we do,
how we reconstruct Europe.' And people said, 'Wait a minute. We haven't even --
I mean, we're still getting -- we're getting beaten in battle after battle, and
you're asking us to put together a plan for the reconstruction of Europe?'" And
I said, "Mr. President, that's what you should be doing now. Put together a plan
for the reconstruction of Afghanistan." And he not only welcomed it, he had
indicated he'd already been thinking about it, and he begun it -- he began
it.
Without identifying the party, after one long
meeting with the president asking me very pointed questions -- not because of my
particular prowess here but just because I guess I represent sort of the
leadership of the other side of political equation here, and the foreign policy
equation -- asking me, and us finding ourselves very much in agreement. And as I
went out, a very prominent member of his -- of the White House followed me down
the hall and said, "You going to stop and talk to the stakeout?" -- the press,
where they wait for us when we walk outside. I said, "I don't have to." He said,
"No, we want you to, to show that we're talking. It's bipartisan. But I hope you
won't mention nation-building." And I said, "You mean what the president talked
to me about for the last hour and 20 minutes?" And he said, "Yeah. Yeah, that's
what I mean." And I said, "No. I won't mention nation-building."
The point is, there is a real struggle here to define how you cut the
political knot the president faces -- like Democrats face on the center-left,
there's one faced on the center-right now. And that is, okay, we're not going to
nation-build because Clinton did that, and we spent eight years beating the
living bejesus out of him for doing that, so we're not going to do that. But,
we've got to be in there with both feet or we know nothing's going to happen. So
this is going to get tricky. This is going to get tricky.
And one of the things that I want to ask you, just a broad question.
I'm going to make a statement and then you tell me whether you -- you know, take
off from the statement in any way you feel that is appropriate. I can't envision
any realistic prospect of us meeting the goal which you've heard articulated by
Democrats, Republicans, administration, and Senate, which is that we want a
stable Afghanistan where all the ethnic groups are represented; where women --
who represent close to 60 percent of the population, over 55 percent of the
population -- where women -- and I can see Ms. Fine (sp) saying 65. Well, I know
it's over 50 (percent), and I hear 55, 60, now 65 -- anyone for 70? But are a
super-majority of the population. We all say these things, and yet -- and you
say the Afghan people are our friends and care about us and like us and look for
us to lead.
My experience of being deeply involved in
another part of the world where there were deep divisions, based upon originally
tribal backgrounds, although with a patina of more sophisticated -- only a
patina though -- more sophisticated institutions, is that they're fully aware
that in the near term they're not likely to be able to resolve the really hard
questions, and they want somebody they trust coming in and in effect laying down
the law when they can't agree.
Secondly, it appears to
me that the six-plus-two is not a workable solution. And ask my friend right
here who spent time in Afghanistan during that period that you were there,
realizing it doesn't work. It didn't work. Let me put it this way, it didn't
work. Not likely to work. So I guess my question is, when we -- and we all say
we want and need to deal with the six-plus million people who may be seriously
physically injured and/or dying as a consequence of not getting enough
nutrition. All the goals are the same. Everybody states they want and have the
same goal. Is there any way the near-term and long-term goal, in your view, can
be met without very specific U.S. leadership?
A speech
written for my by the gentleman on my immediate right behind me -- before the
administration asked for the $ 320 million in aid, I went to the floor
and suggested we commit a billion dollars right then and there to show our good
faith, to actually deliver it, to deal with taking up the immediate need, which
we didn't know wouldn't last all winter -- to take care of the entire ticket,
which we could afford to do. And that, in my view, would then generate genuine
response from other countries.
And I'll conclude by
saying this. I can't think of any time that I have been in this committee,
where, on matters relating to the aftermath or the ongoing physical conflict in
the country, where anything has been resolved without U.S. leadership.
I can't think of one -- not a single one.
And that leadership has been that we usually have forces on the ground.
We want to run the show, you usually have to have somebody with an American flag
on his back -- on his arm on the ground. When it talks about aid, we have
to come with the first down payment. When it talks about political stability, we
have to be the one in there doing it.
Talk to me for a
moment about what is the U.S. role -- not in this broad, generic sense about,
"Well, we have to lead" -- give me some insight as to how much of the
nitty-gritty are we responsible for putting together in the various political,
economic, as well as -- I mean, emergency aid, as well as rebuilding, as
well as dealing with the physical security.
MR.
GOUTTIERRE: Well, I can tell you, you're not going to hear me disagreeing with
the thrust of your statement. I think one of the things we need to do when we
look at Afghanistan is to set aside this cliche, which the phrase "nation
building" has become. It's like, you know, "Is this going to become another
Vietnam" or something. You know, let's throw these things out.
SEN. BIDEN: I agree.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: It's
silly, stupid posturing. But we cannot escape the fact that we are going to have
to help the Afghans rebuild their nation. That doesn't mean we have to be nation
building, you know. They have to build their nation, but we have to help them
rebuild their nation, and it has to be very, very aggressive action.
And I'm apprehensive about the conference in January. I
think it's a good thing. But every time we go to those conferences, we get
together and we say, "Now what are we going to do?" As soon as we say that, the
United States is first saying, and the Afghans will know it, "We're trying to do
it on the cheap. And we're not trying to do it in the same way that we conducted
the campaign -- the military campaign." It's good that it's chaired by the U.S.
-- co-chaired -- the U.S., Japan, EU and Saudi Arabia. But we need to go in and
say, "Hey, guys, we're putting down 10 billion (dollars), and we need to rebuild
-- you know -- help rebuild, reconstruct Afghanistan."
If we don't do it that way, you're right; I don't think it will get
done. And again, 10, 20 billion (dollars) -- it's a sound investment in terms of
our foreign policy and, you know, interests in that part of the world and
throughout the Muslim world. And it's also a sound investment in the kind of
global world we want for our children and grandchildren. Let's face it, you
know, we can't have it if there's instability in Afghanistan that spreads into
Pakistan and Central Asia and continues on in the Persian Gulf.
So, you know, not to go on, but just to -- you know, to confirm what I
said earlier: I'm not going to disagree with your thrust. I believe it firmly. I
think the Afghans are not concerned right now that we're trying to impose
America upon them. They are concerned that we do 1989 again and we kind of drop
them. And, you know, they want us to be, you know, their friends --
SEN. BIDEN: Every one that I've spoken to, except,
occasionally, my collective staff, I got the same response you said here today.
They're not looking for an all-Afghan -- an all-Muslim force --
MR. GOUTTIERRE: No, they're not.
SEN. BIDEN:
-- to come in. As a matter of fact, I'm getting just the opposite.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: Quite the opposite -- the opposite.
SEN. BIDEN: Getting the opposite.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: They want the opposite, and they will tell you that.
I'm sure Fatima will say the same thing. The Afghans want the best peacekeeping
force for the future of Afghanistan.
They want -- you
know -- the friendship that we have provided in the past. I lived there 10
years. I never heard an anti-American statement ever in those 10 years. I
coached basketball teams -- and I was successful, and I didn't even have players
yelling at me, you know -- in opposition in that regard. I mean, the Afghans
understand what a good friend can be, and I think they're hoping and dreaming
and praying that we have learned, ourselves, from our mistakes this last, you
know, 10, 12 years, and that we, you know, see this as our window of
opportunity, as well as their window of opportunity.
SEN. BIDEN: Knowing how seriously Nebraska takes its sports teams, I
won't ask you whether you were there to recruit. Is that --
MR. GOUTTIERRE: Well, I would recruit for the Afghan National
Basketball team --
SEN. BIDEN: Okay. All right. Good,
good.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: -- which I'd like to coach once
again, and also the University of Nebraska hockey team, which is a Division 1
hockey team --
SEN. BIDEN: I know --
MR. GOUTTIERRE: -- and is ranked nationally right now.
SEN. BIDEN: I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know --
(laughter) --
MR. GOUTTIERRE: Okay. Well, you opened
the door!
SEN. BIDEN: I know, I know, I know! And I'm
not even from Colorado!
MR. GOUTTIERRE: (Laughs.)
SEN. BIDEN: Look, let me ask you one last question and
yield the rest of the time to my friend from Rhode Island.
Our next witness is from a respected -- is respected in her own right
-- but from a very respected family, as well. And a Sufi family. The Wahabis and
others have been the more radical -- represent the radical elements. Tell me a
little bit about -- which we've not talked much about -- how much in the -- how
much of the division that exists between and within Pashtun and the other three
major ethnic groups is a reflection as much of a division based upon Islam as
much as it is geography? And how much of a role is this going to play as we --
as this gets played out in Afghanistan?
MR. GOUTTIERRE:
I remember Islam, when I was living in Afghanistan, as essentially a positive
force. What was the case in Afghanistan, although nobody would officially admit
to it, is that there was a kind of separation of church and state at that
time.
END OF TODAY'S COVERAGE
And I think, you know, it was a healthy arrangement.
That's because it wasn't in an extreme period. Extreme periods tend to
bring people moving more to fundamentalists. You've talked about Fatima
Gailani's extended family, and one of those moderate, traditional leaders is
from that family and takes a look in a moderate, constructive, progressive way
for the role of women and in others.
SEN. BIDEN: Well,
how much does this represent --
MR. GOUTTIERRE: There
is a --
SEN. BIDEN: I mean --
MR. GOUTTIERRE: Well, I'm getting to that. And that is this: There is a
difference in Afghanistan, in that not all Muslims are Sunni. There's probably
more than most Sunnis would admit in the Shi'a sect; you know, probably
somewhere in excess of 20 percent. One cannot really know right now, because
censuses are not valid at the moment. But in any case, it will be very necessary
for the Afghans, when they draw up their future, to draw it up in such a way
that that minority Shi'a, you know, population does not feel that, because there
has been a decision to take a Hanafi or Sharia form that is based on the Sunni
majority, that they are again going to be discriminated against, as they were in
the past. And that is an issue.
But right now, I think
the most important and significant -- in the immediate future -- issue is, you
know, the impact over the last 20 years of extreme crises in Afghanistan, which
has tended to move people towards a more conservative, you know -- actually more
fundamentalist form of Islam in Afghanistan. If Afghanistans see opportunity, if
we help Afghanistan -- Afghan citizens to feel that there's hope, you know, to
work among themselves -- they're very practical people. And I always found them,
though good Muslims, not to be extreme when I lived there. And I think they
would naturally, in a traditional form of society and government, they would
naturally evolve, again, to a more practical approach to Islam than this
extremist stuff we've seen.
I think to a degree, we've
seen some of that discredited by the last 10 years in Afghanistan, particularly
the last five years in Afghanistan, with the intrusion of Osama bin Laden and
the Arabs, who were trying to enforce, through this ministry to promote virtue
and, you know, extinguish vice, that, you know, I think Afghans are aware of
these things, as well. But again, you know, we're talking more about the urban
Afghan who came into play with this than the rural Afghans, and in many ways,
they continue to go on in some ways with their lives as they have for decades
and centuries.
And it is the urban areas in Afghanistan
that really do drive the reconstruction and the development in that country. In
Afghanistan, you've heard about all these -- the Pashtuns, the Farsiwans,
Tajiks, the Imok (ph) and the Hazaras, et cetera -- the Uzbeks. The one
population that nobody talks about -- and it's my favorite population -- is the
Kabuli Afghan. This is the Afghan who came -- no matter what the ethnic group --
to Kabul, you know, decades ago. And they became "Kabulized." They became
intermarried. They became Afghanistan's melting pot. And that's what was
bringing, you know, progressive life, a progressive form of life -- reform,
development, education in Afghanistan. It wasn't imposed; it was offered as a
resource. People came for that. We have to help the Afghans to be able to
reconstruct that resource. And I think that's very, very important.
The Kabuli Afghan. Her family will say that they are from,
you know, a lineage that goes back to the Prophet Mohammed. Others will they say
they are Pashtuns from Kandahar. But many of them have never, you know, lived
there, they've lived in Kabul. And for all intents and purposes, like the king
-- who speaks Persian, not Pashtun, he's a Pashtun -- you know, they've been
Kabulized. And that was the driving force for Afghanistan's development, and it
was a driving force to try and bring together a melting pot of Afghans together.
And I think that's -- that's what we have to hope for; it's part of the whole
reconstruction process.
SEN. BIDEN: Some would argue
that was a driving force for the splintering of Afghanistan, as well, though,
isn't it? That there --
MR. GOUTTIERRE: Well, that's
another story. One has to harken back to the politics of the '60s and '70s. And
the splintering began when a member of the royal family staged a coup in revenge
because he'd been bounced out, you know, 10 years earlier, and --
SEN. BIDEN: I'm trespassing --
MR. GOUTTIERRE: You don't want to go into that kind of history.
SEN. BIDEN: No, I do, but I'm going to ask you to maybe
come back at some point so we can go into more detail on this aspect of
Afghanistan so we educate this body more about -- people here have one vision of
Afghanistan. The idea that women held office, that women had responsible
positions, that women were totally integrated, that women were educated and went
to the university is something that is sort of counterintuitive to Americans now
because of all they've been exposed to.
And so when we
say we want to reconstruct and we want women in society -- I have Delawareans
say to me, "Whoa. Wait a minute. Let's not go overboard here.
I mean, they should be in -- but look, I'm not sending my son over
there for you to reconstruct and modernize a country."
And I said, "No, no, no. All I'm trying to do is get Afghanistan, in a
sense, back to where it was in the '60s and early '70s, and they'll take care of
it from there themselves."
And then people go, "What?
You mean to tell me they're" -- you know, they're --
MR. GOUTTIERRE: Exactly.
SEN. BIDEN: So we
have an education process to go underway.
But now I've
gone way beyond my time, and I've trespassed on our next witness but, most
importantly at the moment, on my colleague's time. So the rest of the time is
yours, and then we'll excuse you, Dean.
SEN. CHAFEE:
So, what is the status, Mr. Chairman?
SEN. BIDEN: The
status is, you have as much time as you want to question the dean because --
who's going to then go catch a plane, and then we're going to hear --
MR. GOUTTIERRE (?): No, he's going to go to another
hearing.
SEN. BIDEN: Well, if I knew that, I wouldn't
dismiss you, because --
MR. GOUTTIERRE (?): In the
Rayburn Building. (Laughter.)
SEN. BIDEN: -- no other
hearing could possibly be as important as this hearing.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: That's true. That's why I stayed.
SEN. BIDEN: Fire away.
SEN. LINCOLN CHAFEE
(R-RI): I've heard and admired your testimony, and I'll look forward to hearing
from the Rhode Islander next.
SEN. BIDEN: All right.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: Well, let me -- if I could close, let me
tell you I really appreciate that. I'd like to close -- and I know that Fatima
will make important statements about this. But I coached the first -- I was the
first male to coach an Afghan girls' basketball team and to set up and organize
a girls' high school basketball league. As the head of the Fulbright Foundation
in Afghanistan, I was the first one to be successful in persuading the Afghans
to send Afghan girls on AFS programs. During the war with the Soviets, we had
Afghan -- we had teacher training programs for women even when we were being
threatened and the women were being threatened by the Arabs and others in
Pakistan in the refugee camps.
And I couldn't agree
with those here who have said -- I couldn't agree more with those here who have
said that the education, the training, the equality for women, you know, in
Afghanistan is key, very, very key. And I believe that from the bottom of my
heart. I've lived with these people since 1964, and I just -- I feel this is --
they are the ones who have been the most severe victims of these last 28 years
of improper rule in Afghanistan. And so maybe I'll conclude with that. And thank
you very much for all the time you've given me today.
SEN. BIDEN: (Inaudible) -- that you coached Ms. Gailani and she could
play in the WBA. I thought you were going to tell me that. (Laughter.)
MR. GOUTTIERRE: I (did/didn't ?) coach her, but --
MS. GAILANI: (Off mike.)
MR.
GOUTTIERRE: That's right. Fatima -- (inaudible) -- she did. And she was, by the
way, my -- she's six foot one, and she was a center on my Eishadurani (ph) team,
and I'll tell you, they were hell on wheels. And they learned how to play
basketball from their brothers.
SEN. BIDEN: Thank you,
Dean. Thank you for your commitment and sticking with it, and we'll continue to
rely on you as a resource.
MR. GOUTTIERRE: Thank you.
Bye-bye.
SEN. CHAFEE: Ms. Gailani, I thank you very
much for you indulgence, and I'm very interested and anxious to hear your
testimony. And we have as much time as you have.
MS.
GAILANI: Thank you.
Thank you very much for inviting me
here. I would like to start by saying that people of Afghanistan are really
sorry and hurt the way the Americans were hurt by the September 11th incident,
the same way we are hurting when our country is bombed by our own friends. The
only way that one can solace what happened in September is that we achieve
something in Afghanistan and get rid of the terrorists forever. And an
explanation for the people of Afghanistan, those who were directly bombed and
hurt and lost loved ones, that here it was necessary and but here I gave you
peace and stability, a normal life.
Twenty-two years of
war in Afghanistan brought lots and lots of misery upon our country, from
underground irrigation systems, to schools, hospitals, roads, everything,
everything, our forest, national forests were destroyed, and also women's
situation in Afghanistan. They became, quote, "all of a sudden," slowly but all
of a sudden, slowly but all of a sudden, during the Taliban.
The conference in Bonn did open a window for women. It was good --
although I heard two people, but there were five women who were present in that
meeting, three in the capacity of delegates, and two in the capacity of
advisers. And I was one of the advisers.
This
conference gave us hope, especially at the opening speeches. When Mr. Qanooni
started his speech, I thought, "My god, we don't have any problem; maybe in
three days time we will pack up and go home," because he was so flexible. He
claimed that there was nothing they wanted; all they wanted is peace and
stability and forming an interim government which will be really broad-based.
When the negotiations started, I was a bit scared because,
first, he had a problem over the presence or non-presence of peacekeeping forces
in Afghanistan.
And we had a good two days spent on
that.
With the exception of the delegation of Northern
Alliance, the other delegates, they were absolutely confirmed upon it, that
without a peacekeeping force -- an independent force in Afghanistan, the
government cannot work. And I want to add upon that, that women could not have a
normal life, because they had experiences, but even with Northern Alliance.
Then, negotiating where you had meetings in room to room,
and without a visa, without an airplane, from Peshawar we were going to Cyprus,
from Cyprus -- these were the rooms. I mean, our offices -- one was called
"Peshawar," the other "Cyprus" and "Northern Alliance" and "Rome." So we were
just -- in matter of few steps, you were entering from Rome to Cyprus, from
Cyprus to Peshawar.
We solved lots of problems, and
then we were told by the -- Ambassador Brahimi that we had to come up with a
list of government. And he emphasized that these people will have to be
competent, educated and also, if possible, not belong to any of the political
organizations. If a competent person happened to be one of those organizations,
it's fine, but otherwise, we should try not to have him there.
The result was -- I am telling you the truth -- I was a bit shocked.
Seventeen seats went to the Northern Alliance out of 30. I had hoped maybe five
very important posts, and then, 10 altogether -- but 17! So it would have been
better that -- if we had that the meeting which had happened in Rome, the
Northern Alliance and the office of the ex-king, that 50 of them, 50 there -- it
would have been even better. Why should you bother with us being there and not
even offered anything which we deserved? Because the only mistake we have done
that we put our arms down when the war against Soviet Union finished, and we
didn't participate in the civil war.
During the civil
war, when you were talking about the interim government --
SEN. BIDEN: Could you define for the record who you mean by "we"?
MS. GAILANI: The majority of people who did not
participate in the civil war. We were not with the Taliban; we were not with the
Northern Alliance. We were the mujahedeen or people who were civilian refugees
who did not take sides.
Some of our very strong
mujahedeen preferred to put down their forces and accept what was coming from
the initiative of the United Nations -- something very similar to what we had
today. But unfortunately, some of our friends had a coup, and we know what
happened.
Well, anyway, I have criticism upon this
list. I wish it was better than that. I wish the Northern Alliance had
introduced few women. We have two women in this government, one introduced by
the Rome, the wonderful lady that Dr. Gouttierre talked about. And the other one
is also a surgeon who was introduced by us, who's also a very remarkable and
capable woman. But no woman from the Northern Alliance, although they had 17
seats. We gave our organization -- the Peshawar Group, so called -- out of three
seats, we gave one to a woman.
But in spite of all
that, I still have hope, I really have hope that this government will succeed.
Mr. Qanooni is a very capable person. And also, I know a few other people from
the Northern Alliance. We were colleagues during the jihad. And I have every
faith that they will be very successful in their job. And also, Mr. Karzai, whom
I have never worked with, but I have heard that he has a strong personality,
and, indeed, he is a Pashtun who doesn't want to belong only to his own part of
the Afghanistan, but he wants to be shared by everyone.
Now we come to the situation of women. This is the only opportunity we
have to take women back where they used to be, as senator said. We want to go
back to the democracy time. I am the generation of the democracy time. When I
was at school, I was 100 percent sure that every door will be opened for me --
any opportunity, and seat, as long as I train myself and I educate myself to be
worthy of that seat. And I had taken it for granted, and you know that I was
mistaken. This time we want guarantees for peace in my country, but above all, I
mean, a support for women, and, eventually, a democracy.
The subject of democracy was not mentioned by any of the panelists. I
strongly believe that Afghan people can have democracy. You always say that
Afghan people have their own mind. If you have your strong mind, then democracy
is the answer. And I believe that 10 years of democracy in Afghanistan did
work.
I remember that my parents were reading
newspapers and magazines -- Western magazines and newspaper, commenting that how
wonderfully these people go to the ballot boxes, as if they have done it all
their life, because this is a want of any human being. Of course they wanted to
go to the ballot boxes.
When we have democracy, I have
no fear for women status and I have no fear for the minorities -- ethnic,
religious minorities -- in Afghanistan, because no matter how extremist one
person is, his idea will be worth only one vote.
Now,
what provisions should we have for women in the future? As much as I am grateful
for lots of women activists in the West who support us, they were the only one
who raised our voice when the government had forgotten us, or they didn't have
time for us, but I am also cautious that the Western feminism cannot work in
Afghanistan. Even if I am a secularist, when I go -- eventually I want to be in
the parliament, hopefully -- that when I go and ask for people to vote for me,
if I tell them that I have a secular ideology, these women will not vote for me,
let alone men. But during democracy of Afghanistan, from 1963 to 1973, we proved
that an Islamic constitution can give the opportunity for women to have equal
right of education, equal right of work with the same pay for the same job, and
equal opportunity of political participation.
I
remember, I was maybe nine or 10, that they were working upon how could they pay
equal pay for men and women, and I remember a jurist said that when the wife of
the prophet was a cobbler, was making shoes, was her shoes made by her is half
price of a shoe that was made by a man? Then of course, they said no. They said,
then why a teacher should take half price or a female doctor, or so on. So, at
that time in France women were fighting for having equal pay. We had it. When we
had women in the senate, in Switzerland, women couldn't vote. We don't want for
-- I mean ask for stars; we want what we had, and we want what we deserve.
I strongly believe that some of our women, who are
financed, or whatever, by the Western sort of feminism, should be a little bit
cautious -- the American friends and (Afghan ?) friends, because the situation
is so delicate. If we harm this process, even a little bit, it could create big
problems. I believe that I have enough evidence in Islam that we could support
all these rights for women from the Islamic way.
And
yes, the Bonn process was not perfect -- I close by this -- but I accept it, and
I would like to see this as an opening door for all of us. And I don't believe
that some people say that women were a token there. They were strong women, and
they were committed. And one thing that we had no problem in Bonn, it was
women's issue -- maybe only 10 minutes spent on it, because they all agreed,
which is very good.
So I say it again, don't forget us,
because if you forget us, we will have another problem, and that problem will
harm lots of people outside Afghanistan's boundary.
Thank you.
SEN. BIDEN: Thank you very much.
As a courtesy to my friend from Rhode Island, maybe I'll
let him begin, since you are living in Rhode Island these days.
SEN. LINCOLN CHAFEE (R-RI): First of all, thank you, Mr. Chairman, for
choosing such a distinguished witness; a woman who brings a compelling
perspective and ability to comment on recent events in Afghanistan, and how that
nation can prosper in the future. So thank you.
And I'm
curious about the rise of fundamentalism across the Islamic world, and not just
in Afghanistan with the Taliban, but what are the root causes of that?
MS. GAILANI: In Afghanistan, it's a totally different
matter. I was a student in Iran when the Iranian Islamist revolution started. I
believe that lack of -- I strongly believe that lack of having healthy political
parties in our country push us to underground politics. At that time it used to
be Islam and Communism, and now it is just Islam. We are educated, whether if it
is in Arab countries in Afghanistan or anywhere, the way that we are educated is
really a Western education. When you learn all that, then you need to express
it. When you express it, you need parties to express upon. So if you don't have
these opportunities, then you go to extremism.
I
remember during -- before democracy in Afghanistan, there were two underground
parties, Islamists -- (inaudible) -- and the Communists. And they were really
working hard. They were trying to recruit people from big families, influential,
rich families. And this is exactly what Islamists are doing now in the Islam
world. This is exactly what is happening.
I remember
that I was sent by my father to come here 18 years ago to show our worry about
recruiting these non-Afghans in jihad. And most of these people were quite rich,
well-off people. And I tried so hard to convince people here that we don't need
foreign fighters. We have enough fighters; we just need defensive weapons. I
think in the other countries, it is really lack of expressing their politics.
In Afghanistan, what we see with the Taliban, it's an
important product. Afghanistan became a nest for all kind of nasty people, and
some of our Arab friends even helped that very much, because they would say to
these naughty boys, "Take this toy; go and play in my neighbor's yard. Leave me
have my siesta." And that other yard was our country.
In Afghanistan, the war between the rivalry of Wahabism and Shiasm was
fought. The rivalry between the supremacy -- regime of supremacy of Iran and
Pakistan was fought. Any war anyone had in that region was fought inside
Afghanistan. And the same thing, the Taliban or al Qaeda, or whatever, that came
in Afghanistan not because the people of Afghanistan wanted it, it became as a
-- I mean a nest for these people.
SEN. CHAFEE: I
suppose that question could be answered in weeks and months.
SEN. BIDEN: I think that's a pretty good answer. I know you do too.
SEN. CHAFEE: It's a complex question. And as we look --
and you mentioned just the rise of Western influence, and you talk about the
delicate balance and the possible resentment of Western influence in the country
and whether that will galvanize further fundamentalism, I think that's one of
the challenges.
MS. GAILANI: I don't have a fear from
that at all. Actually, again, we are lucky that we did have the experience of
these 10 years of democracy. I heard it from Maulavi Khalis, one of our quite
hard- liner Muslim Mujaheddin leader. By the way, I said it during the civil war
-- I had a choice between having a nervous breakdown or doing a study on
something else, so I studied Islamic jurisprudence. And when he heard that I was
studying this, he said that's wonderful, but I'll tell you one thing, that the
constitution that we had in Afghanistan, it was the best mixture of Islam and
modernity. It was created by the best jurists we had in Afghanistan, plus a
French expert in law, and a very big share from Al Azhar University from Egypt.
The person who was behind that constitution -- Mohammed Musa Shafiq, was a
jurist; happened to be the last prime minister of the ex-king, and he proved to
be the most modern and the most progressive prime minister we had. And Professor
Gouttierre has written a beautiful chapter in a book about him. That because he
was successful, because democracy was working, because Islam and modernity
showed such a strong bond, the coup happened in Afghanistan; first with the
front, President Daoud, and then a communist coup.
So I
have no fear of any other backlash. Just give us democracy and you will see that
we will show you wonders.
SEN. CHAFEE: Well, I applaud
your confidence in democracy, I really do.
SEN. BIDEN:
Well, I applaud your courage. I'll be brief.
You state
the conundrum -- Islam and modernity. You talk about them, as everyone else
does, as if they have to learn to live with one another, and they are not one in
the same; that Islam is -- has had difficulty absorbing modernity, becoming
modern. And democracy is associated with modernity -- with modern.
And the thing that I always find -- the conundrum I always
find myself when I listen to Islamic experts like my friend, Jonah Blank behind
me, who is a former Harvard professor of anthropology and a student of Islam,
and a professor of, is that on its face that conundrum; that democracy is not,
in the eyes of those who do not understand -- or maybe understand Islam -- is
inconsistent with Islam. It has been something that has not been embraced very
many places.
And so the concern, I think, raised by
Senator Chafee, as I read it, is a concern that I have.
There are three things which you seem to have said today. One is that
all agree that there must be a society in Afghanistan at least open enough to
accommodate different views and political outlets for people's views, extreme or
otherwise. And that it must embrace women, in terms of being full participants,
but it must not do it the Western way; it must do it the Islam way.
And my question to you is, is not democracy, per se, the
Western way? Or is it consistent with Islam? Because one of the things that
there is a -- as a Christian and a Catholic, there is a -- I went to a religious
school, and when you misbehaved in school, the religious teachers, the nuns,
would make you stay after school and be disciplined. And the way you were
disciplined was writing on the blackboard a number of times something you were
supposed to absorb.
SEN. CHAFEE: Did that ever happen
to you?
SEN. BIDEN: It happened to me quite often,
quite often. And one of the things that I used to have to write, I can recall
writing it 500 times while I could hear everyone else out on the playground
playing baseball while I was writing this, and it went like this, it said: "The
road to hell is paved with good intentions." Because I would find myself saying
-- "Why did you speak up in class, Mr. Biden?" And I'd say, "Well, Sister, I was
trying to settle that argument behind me." And she would say, "You may have had
a good intention, but you are paving your own road to hell here" -- not
literally, but figuratively.
We have good intentions
right now. The women on this committee, the women in this body, who are very
much part of Western feminism, have very good intentions to help women in
Afghanistan. And one of the hardest things that's going to occur, I think, is us
figuring out how we help without interfering.
How much
of an impact on the deliberations in Bonn, that resulted in all agreeing that
women would have a place in the new government, was the consequence of a diktat
coming from this administration saying, "By the way, there is no alternative
here. You must include women." How much of it was a consequence of that, versus
just a spontaneity among the players? Because as you know much better than I, it
wasn't only the Taliban that has mistreated women; the Northern Alliance, when
it held power, many elements of that coalition treated women with alarming
brutality. Some groups imposed restrictions hardly less extreme than the
Taliban, and rapes and sexual slavery, and so on.
So,
how much of it was a consequence of a Western power imposing a diktat on all of
you assembled, and how much of it was just pure spontaneity, love and
generosity?
MS. GAILANI: It was all -- came by force.
And I'm happy it did. During the time of jihad, I was the only woman in the
Afghan politics, not because other women didn't know and couldn't achieve better
than I did, only because I had a religious family behind me, and a father who
wanted to show that it is all right. And because he was a religious leader, he
was not questioned.
We tried so hard, we tried to hard
to bring more women in the politics of the mujaheddin. We didn't succeed because
at that time, if you remember, in spite of our struggle, the trend was that help
whoever has the biggest beard and the biggest turban. That was the fancy of the
Western countries, especially here, unfortunately.
We
were totally marginalized, only because in the eye of the Western countries,
especially here, we looked Westerner. They forgot that they have friends in
Afghanistan, strong friends. They looked for higher people, and those higher
people happened to be the most radical of the Islamists we saw in the country. I
still don't know why you have done that, and I am happy that it stopped and you
helped us to stop it.
Yes, the situation of women in
Bonn was forced upon all of us. We welcomed it. Our organization couldn't bring
any women because we had only three seats, and we had 15 organizations and
parties and mujaheddin tribesmen under the umbrella that my father has now.
And we didn't know how to push a woman. So I virtually
pushed myself in this conference as adviser. And those people that they had 11
seats -- the king brought two, which was very good, and the North brought only
one.
SEN. BIDEN: There's another Western expression
that seems appropriate here: "Be careful what you wish for, for you may get
it."
MS. GAILANI: (Chuckles.)
SEN. BIDEN: And I'm not being facetious when I say that. In a
democratic Afghanistan, do you believe that women will be represented? I know
they represent more than a majority of the population. Do you think that the
participation of women, who, I would think, after 20- some years, might be
understandably less courageous than you and understandably more reluctant to
engage in -- what we saw on the television, whether it's true or not --
And let me make it clear to you: I do not profess to be an
expert on your country. I am chairman of this committee, the most vaulted
position in foreign policy in our government other than in the administration.
I've spent my academic and my political career mastering strategic doctrine and
U.S.-Soviet relations and, quote, "the Middle East as it relates to the
Palestinian and the Israeli struggle," and Europe generally, et cetera. But I do
not profess to have an expertise.
But what I observed
on the international broadcasts were, when the Taliban was driven out of
Kabul, men flocking to barbershops in resistance to shave off their beards. But
none of that happened in rural areas -- women still wearing burkas in rural
areas, whereas in Kabul, women defiantly demonstrating that, you know -- it's
like that -- there is a mantra in a child's fable called, you know -- "Ding,
dong, the witch is dead," you know -- everybody can come out now. Well, "Ding,
dong, the Taliban is gone; I can take off my burka." But that didn't happen
other places.
And so what I guess I'm asking you is --
and I realize it's asking you to be a bit of a fortune teller -- is how long do
you think it will take, and what circumstances have to exist to provide an
environment where, even if there is a democracy, women will feel the confidence
to come forward without fear of being raped, molested, beaten, subjected to
indignities and/or just shunned?
MS. GAILANI: I
challenged once a representative of the Taliban on radio -- BBC -- that I'm
going to study Islamic jurisprudence, and I did it. And now, Senator, I
challenge you, that in a democratic Afghanistan, you choose the area, I'll go
and compete in election against any man you choose, and I'll win.
SEN. BIDEN: Hey, I'll manage your campaign. I'm for you,
kid! (Laughter.) I'm with you. I can tell you're a winner.
MS. GAILANI: But --
SEN. BIDEN: I don't have
any doubt about that. But all kidding aside --
MS.
GAILANI: Yeah.
SEN. BIDEN: -- how do you get women
--
MS. GAILANI: I'm not kidding. I'm very serious about
that.
SEN. BIDEN: I know you are.
MS. GAILANI: In the past in Afghanistan, we had four women in the first
parliament, only one was from Kabul. The three others, they were nominated from
their own villages -- from provinces -- and they won.
SEN. BIDEN: I don't doubt that. All I'm saying is, you've had 20 --
more than two decades of misery and subjugation and brutality that women have
been the victims of.
MS. GAILANI: We had brutality not
only upon women; we had brutality, period. We had --
SEN. BIDEN: Oh, I know that. But I mean,
MS.
GAILANI: That --
SEN. BIDEN: I'm just focusing on for
the moment.
MS. GAILANI: So this is an artificial
environment that in Afghanistan today we live. This is an artificial Afghanistan
you see. As I said earlier, every battle was important in Afghanistan by those
people who were greedy to find some money and brought these things. I assure
you, if we pave the way -- which I said, paving the way has to be from the
Islamic point of view -- we should have a radio. We should have a radio with
programs that women should know about their rights. Men should know -- men are
ignorant. It's not that just because women are ignorant, yet --
SEN. BIDEN: Hold it.
MS. GAILANI: (Chuckles.)
In Afghanistan.
SEN. BIDEN: (Laughs.) No, here as well,
occasionally.
MS. GAILANI: Men are ignorant of the
rights of their wives, sisters and brothers as much as they're ignorant of their
own rights within Islam. So we need these -- whether you call it propaganda,
whether you call it enlightenment, whether you call it whatever you like; I
don't care -- as long as we have these programs that will talk to the nation,
talk to the people to tell them that other Muslim -- how could they live in a
democratic life, and how could, as a Muslim, they could give opportunity to the
women, because this is an order from God.
SEN. BIDEN:
To use your phrase, I would love to have an opportunity, when you have the
opportunity, to spend some time with you and my staff and some of my colleagues
in an informal setting in my office, to discuss just that.
I'll end where I began my questioning with the professor. I indicated
-- where I ended my questioning with him. I asked him, "How much" -- as you
recall, 20 minutes ago -- I asked him, "How much of the divisions that exist on
public policy within Afghanistan are reflective of adoptions of different
versions of Islam, as opposed to their tribal lineage, and how do they
intersect?" I have tried my best -- and I have a long way to go -- through Jonah
Blank and others on my staff who are scholars on and relating to Islam, as well
as those who are practitioners, to educate myself more about Islam.
And as my mother would say, a little bit of knowledge is a
dangerous thing. I have a little bit of knowledge, and I suspect maybe a little
bit more than a little bit of knowledge. But there are such interesting
parallels between the bitter and bloody and divisive fights that exist within
Christendom among Christians over the interpretation of the Bible, that I see
from a historical perspective, the same thing have occurring from the fourth
caliph on within your religion.
And so what I need to
be educated more about, and I hope there are members of this administration who
I have respect for what they're attempting to do -- attempt to school themselves
on how much of a part the different readings of the Koran which result in
different sects -- whether it's Sunni or Shi'a, whether it is Sufi -- whatever
iteration of Islam is the most predominant. Because, as you point out, you are
able to, capable of, and willing to debate any member of the Taliban -- who is
probably Wahabi or some other version of Islam, different than your version of
Islam -- on what the prophet meant when he spoke and what he wrote down. And we
call that in the West, as you know, a religious debate.
There is a famous American jurist named Oliver Wendell Holmes who said
the following -- he said, "Prejudice is like the pupil of the eye. The more
light you shine upon it, the more tightly it closes." And I have found, as a
student of Western religions -- and I mean that seriously, theology is my
avocation -- that there are very few debates about religion that are resolved
based on logic. They should be resolved based on logic. And I'll conclude with
one example.
Even within Protestant sects of
Christendom, there are wide variations -- not resulting in jihad, but wide --
even the definition of what is meant by "jihad" is disagreed among you all --
wide differences between, let's say, Episcopalians and Pentecostals on how you
read certain -- the same paragraph from the same Bible. And there's
disagreements about whether or not the way to read the Bible is with an educated
person translating it, in effect, for you, or take it literally. And I'm always
reminded of a phrase in the Christian Bible talking about it, and it goes
something like this: "It is as difficult for a rich man to get to heaven as it
is for a camel to get through the eye of a needle."
There are very deeply devout, honorable, decent, fundamentalist
Christians who believe that's literal. The Bible said that. Most educated
theologians point out to you that there was a gate in the wall of Jerusalem,
referred to as the "eye of the needle," that camels had to get down on their
knees to be able to get through. And the reference in the Bible refers to that a
rich man has greater obligations than a poor man because he has been given more.
And to those who have given much, much is expected, in Christendom. And so the
interpretation is that a rich man better not just enjoy his riches himself; he
should make them available to his fellow man. Otherwise he'll have difficulty
getting to heaven. But taken literally, it means a rich man can never get to
heaven, because no man can get through the eye of a needle.
You have the same kinds of divisions within Islam in terms of
interpretations of parts of the Koran. And so it gives me hope that you are
pursuing equity and democracy within your country. It gives me pause and concern
to think that you must do it through Islam -- not because I'm critical of Islam
--
MS. GAILANI: No, I understand that.
SEN. BIDEN: -- but because those kinds of, in effect, religious debates
are seldom ever resolved. It took Western Europe 500 years of bloodshed to
finally resolve that they could live together.
And
that's part of my concern. And I need to be educated, and maybe you would help
educate me.
MS. GAILANI: Senator, I didn't mean that we
should give them theology education; (I'm coming to ?) to philosophy of Islam.
In Afghanistan we have Sunni Hanafis and Shi'a Jafaris and Ismailis. Ismailis,
as we know, they're open to all sort of -- democracy and modernization and all.
In the "fiqh," in the -- oh, what's the "fiqh" in -- in the jurisprudence the
majority of people have in Afghanistan and in Jafari jurisprudence, we are very
close. We are not that far away. The translation or interpretation of Koran,
there are very few places that people differ, very few, but those things that we
need inside Afghanistan today to open these three doors for women, education,
education is the first order of God to Prophet, to read, learn the knowledge of
pen, writing. Not Wahhabi nor Shi'a, Sunni, whoever, could argue that.
SEN. BIDEN: But they do. They say you should not be
educated. Am I not correct?
MS. GAILANI: They say it
because they count on the ignorance of people, and they proved that they could
do it so far.
SEN. BIDEN: Okay.
MS. GAILANI: And incidentally, I'll tell you that the last debate I had
with Taliban, again on BBC, or maybe Voice of America, he asked me very
politely, with all my religious titles, that "Beebee (ph), would you disagree
that the honor of a woman should come before education?" I said, "It's not up to
you or up to me to decide which comes first, which comes second. I have no
courage to talk on God's word, which says, ekra (ph), the first thing comes,
ekra (ph), before praying, before Ramadan, before anything." I said, "Would you
have this courage to say such a thing?" The poor man was quiet. How could say
that "No, I have a better way than God has"? So he had to be quiet, because they
count upon women's --
SEN. BIDEN: Maybe you should
manage my next campaign. (Laughter.) You are very good. You are very good.
MS. GAILANI: So these are the things. When it comes to
work, I would say the wife of the Prophet was working, as a teacher, one of
them, cobbler or whatever. Was he doing something bad? Did the Prophet allow her
to do something which was not honorable? Could they say anything against it?
They can't.
When we come to the question of voting, on
being elected, A'ishah was a politician. The Prophet or any of the caliphs, when
they took the power, they had to ask men and women for consent. And we have
evidence in the Koran.
So if we could guarantee these
three things, I'll tell you, Senator, that upon that I'll build a lot.
SEN. BIDEN: I'm confident you will. And I would argue that
the honor of a woman cannot be met without allowing her to be educated. But,
having said that, you're obviously very educated, very sophisticated and very
charming. We appreciate the fact you've taken the time to be here. We've learned
from you. I've learned from you. And we'll call on you again, if you'd be
willing. Thank you.
And I wish you all the good luck in
the world. And just remember, someday when you're prime minister and you're told
by your secretary that there's a guy named Biden in the outer office with his
granddaughter who wishes to meet the prime minister, you will not say, "Joe
who?" All right? (Laughter.)
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